Epocdigest V1 # 261

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Epoc Digest Sun, 25 May 2003 Volume 01 : Number 261

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Sent to: 776 subscribers

In today's Epoc Digest 15 messages:

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-- Psion_Mac Excel file swaps

- Re: TubeRoute

- RE: Space Invaders

- Palmtop Money

- Re: TubeRoute

- Diamond Mako with Psion Travel Modem for sale.

- GPRS and psion wap browser with voda

- RE: Psion Wap Browser & GPRS

- Bunch of Fives, CF card,

- HAPPY BIRTHDAY

- S7 in car

- Re: Opening netbook

- More GPRS and WAP Browser

- Re: Mail2web

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Date: 25 May 2003

From: The Epoc Digest Team

Subject:

Hi Tony,

may be you can read this message out of digest.

Your provider returned the last digests with the message "Unknown user". Therefore we unsubscribed you for 1 week.

Best regards

Rolf Vonau

The Epoc Digest Team

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Date: 24 May 2003 10:58:34 +0100

From: Cyril Catt

Subject: Psion_Mac Excel file swaps

Timothy Williams asks how Mac users convert spreadsheet files to Excel format?

As Excel was first available on the Mac, and has been the primary spreadsheet since, this is an important question.

With the P3 series, file swaps between Psions and Macs were easy.

But with the P5 series I find file swaps between these two excellent platforms just too inconvenient. And the alternatives are not much better.

The Palm swaps files fairly well with Macs, but its small screen and lack of keyboard render it a very last resort for fieldwork.

The iBook runs Excel, but is less convenient to carry everywhere.

A digital camera and OCR can capture data, notes, etc, which can fairly easily be transferred to a Mac, but does not allow interactive operations on the data.

Personally, I would be happy with a new, working, P3a. It very adequately met my needs for working in the field or when travelling.

Cyril Catt

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Date: 24 May 2003 11:16:04 +0100

From: Chris S Handley

Subject: Re: TubeRoute

Hello Rolf,

While I think this discussion should have been private (you have a number of misconceptions regarding TubeRoute), I don't wish to leave users with the wrong impression of TubeRoute, and am therefore posting my reply here. I would prefer if you would reply in private...

Rolf Brunsting wrote:

>> To be perfectly honest, I hadn't even consider this was a

>> problem!

> It's understandable that you're thinking more of the

> application, specially the route planning algorithm, when you

> receive a comment like mine. What you should keep in mind

> though is that a user looks at TubeRoute in a different

> fashion than you do.

I definitely disagree with your assumption about what I'm thinking; I was thinking of it from the point of view of *me* using it, and I am definitely no expert on the London underground.

> TubeRoute is the ideal tool for people

> who visit London for the very first time. People who aren't

> familiar with London's underground system and like to use

> TubeRoute as their travel guide. Specially those who have

> never travelled on an underground system before. These people

> are on unfamiliar territory and will treat the directions

> TubeRoute comes up with as gospel.

> What you describe as a minor issue is a major one for them.

> They're the people who will step out at Turnham Green

> (struggling with their luggage) looking for the other

> Piccadilly Line train that will bring them to Green Park.

> Because that's what TubeRoute says they have to do when

> travelling from Heathrow to Finchley Road.

And again, I see no trouble with this. It's not *ideal*, but if you want the totally optimal route every time then you can go pay the London Underground lots of money, to save you one non-essential stop in a few cases - or spend a few moments examining the route that was suggested!

> What's more,

> they'll panic when the train doesn't stop at Turnham Green

> because the train only stops there early mornings and late

> evenings Mondays to Saturdays.

This is an entirely *new* problem that you've just told me about. It has nothing to do with the TubeRoute program, but is down to the London database:

In the database I selected Turnham Green as the closest "junction point" for the Y-junction at that point. There was no obvious indication about limited opening times on the map I used as a main reference.

Thanks for informing me of this oversight. I can now very easily fix this, by using Stamford Brook as the junction point.

> I'm very familiar with the London Underground network because

> there was a time when I visited London once or twice a month

> on business.

In which case I would appreciate it if you look for any other mistakes in the London database; please email me privately. I did my best to systematically look for mistakes, but it appears my limited knowledge of the London underground has meant I missed at least one possible type of problem (this does not surprise me - hence my request in Help for users to report mistakes in the database).

> And when I plan a route from Heathrow to Earls

> Court, and find that I have to change at Turnham Green to

> make the switch to the District Line, I think I'm justified

> in saying that the route planning algorithm needs an

> overhaul.

<sigh> This is exactly the same problem as the one you originally mentioned; an unnecessary change, due to going the "wrong" way through a Y-juntion.

This time the algorithm opted to change to the Distict line, rather than stay on the Picadilly line, since both lines go to the same destination (and in fact are parallel).

So the algorithm is behaving exactly as I would expect! You might complain about the District line having more stops (so slower), but it is clearly stated when you run my program that the number of stops is not considered, and therefore will not always produce the best route. A planned improvement will see it minimises the number of stops.

>> I find this a bit puzzling, since for *me* TubeRoute gives

>> the latter route for all *4* route options

> The error is repeatable.

I would expect this, since TubeRoute does not use a random number generator!

>> 1. Your database is different to mine (did you edit it?)

> No, I haven't.

> Note that I'm a *user* who expects you to have translated the

> London Underground network into a format that's easy for

> TubeRoute to work with. Whether that's in the form of a

> database, multiple databases, ASCII text file(s) or whatever.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The database exists, and is designed to be easily editable by the user, to correct any mistakes or changes made to the Underground.

The requirement of a user-editable database has had the unfortunate side-effect of significantly slowing down route finding, but I plan to optimise this now that the best algorithms are used.

>> 2. You are using a different map to me (I use the default

>> one)

> I don't use a map at all.

OK, so that means you are still using the original TubeRoute_London_pos file (and not the one from the Contributions folder?). Ummm, you *do* have that file in the same folder as the TubeRoute_London database?

In which case, I am very puzzled since it appears we are using exactly the same program & data, yet yielding different results! I suppose it is possible I made a change to TubeRoute since I released it, but I don't recall doing so.

Would you mind specifying EXACTLY which From & To stations you are using, and which Route algorithm gives the different (bad) route?

>> Probably this is due to a known bug, where lines that

>> curve (and Piccadilly does so between South Kensington &

>> Kings Cross) are favoured more than they should (please see

>> the "Bugs & the future" section of the Help file)

> I think you need to have a good look at the algorithm you're

> using because you're dealing with a lattice and want to know

> how to get from one node on the lattice to another. It

> doesn't matter whether the connections between nodes are

> straight lines or curved lines.

I'm sorry, but you have now made some very unjustified assumptions. The curvature of the lines *must* affect the choice of route, since currently TubeRoute uses the straight-line distance between two station changes. A curved line will therefore appear to be shorter than it actually is, and so will may be chosen when another line would actually be shorter.

So there is nothing wrong with my algorithm, but rather my line-distance procedure is somewhat approximate. As already stated, I plan to improve this, and my program is already structured in a way that means no other code will need changing except the distance code.

>> Fairly heavy testing on my part during development means I

>> am confident that TubeRoute's route-finding algorithm is

>> correct within it's design limitations (which are mostly

>> rather small)

> I've had a look at the "Creating a new database" and

> "Improving a new database" sections of the help file and

> think I've found the error.

As I hope you see now, there is no error. Although since your explanation of the "error" was not very clear, I can't be totally certain.

> 1) I've only planned two routes (Heathrow to Finchley Road

> and Heathrow to Earls Court) and have found three major

> errors. This makes me conclude that your "Fairly heavy

> testing" did contain procedural blindspots. Sorry, but I

> can't make anything else out of it.

Obviously I disagree with you, and what I have said should indicate that it is your assumptions about how TubeRoute should work that explain how you came to this conclusion.

I still maintain my algorithm(s) behaves 100 percent as I expect it would. Maybe not as you would like, but you are welcome to implement your own!

> 2) I'm making the case for having the algorithm changed so

> that it doesn't make the errors I'm reporting.

Mostly the errors you report are not so much down to the algorithm, but either a limitation in the database format (possibly fixable if really needed) or an error in the London database itself (fixable immediately).

> That I appear to be more critical is because I've done alpha,

> beta and final acceptance testing as part of my job. When

> TubeRoute would be company software I would have flagged the

> errors I've found as Category 1 (Must be fixed before

> customer release) because they're at the core of the

> application.

I would also ask you to please avoid making large assumptions before you know more about what you are testing! At least please avoid doing so in public, as that could lead to misunderstandings.

> Also because there's no

> equivalent to TubeRoute available - you're currently a

> monopoly supplier. This means that you're expected to meet

> higher than average standards of product support.

Sorry, "monopoly supplier"?!? "product support"?!?

If you hadn't noticed, TubeRoute is completely free, and not even slightly commercial! While I of course want to make it as professional as possible, I think you are being a bit unreasonable, especially for a first release.

Regards,

Chris Handley

(Who wishes people would report bugs to him, so that he could actually fix them;-)

*++++++++++&

Date: 24 May 2003 11:58:12 +0100

From: Michael Degn

Subject: RE: Space Invaders

Answer to Kevin Thorne

> This is probably gonna make me sound VERY stupid but I can see the part that says "download" but not the actual link, so I can't see where the actual link is to click and download the SIS file. Do I need new glasses or has the link really disappeared or does Web not show it for some reason? I can't wait to relive my mis-spent youth ;-) <

Dear Kevin,

It's not stupid at all. The link is hidden in an animated gif file which Web obviously cannot display. Opera OTOH has no problems to display it or to download it for that matter. I did it on my S7.

Best regards,

Michael Degn

Esbjerg, Denmark

www.degn.esenet.dk

www.pdanmark.dk

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Date: 24 May 2003 13:01:31 +0100

From: Kevin Collins

Subject: Palmtop Money

Hi folks...

To Itamar Engelsman (> ):

> Re. Palmtop Money - Ah, what you are really saying that > it is not just a bank account program but an almost full > fledged bookkeeping program. Hmmmm, might have another

> look at it just for that reason for my photography

> business.

Itamar, it is what you say... I keep my own business accounts on it.

Is it sitll for sale at Palmtop (or TomTom as

> they are called now) ?

AFAIK yes: try www.tomtom.com. But I imagine you could buy a secondhand copy from Psion Exchange, who advertise regularly in Palmtop Magazine... www.psionex.co.uk, I think?

Regards,

Kevin [Cork, Ireland]

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Date: 24 May 2003 17:24:28 +0100

From: Neil Thompson

Subject: Re: TubeRoute

I have been really disappointed with the digests treatment of the author of TubeRoute. The criticism he has received has, in my opinion, been wholly unjustified. Chris has never once stated that his is a finished piece of work and has not actively advertised the program, only quietly through the newsgroups.

Unless you want to frighten off other authors I suggest that you offer critique rather than criticism.

Neil

*++++++++++&

Date: 24 May 2003 18:57:04 +0100

From: bait

Subject: Diamond Mako with Psion Travel Modem for sale.

Hi;

I have recently switched to a Sony Clie NX70V for multimedia purposes and am thinking about selling the above.

Anyone interested?

Send an email direct: bait

Thanks, Jay

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Date: 24 May 2003 20:08:33 +0100

From: Mark Deppe

Subject: GPRS and psion wap browser with voda

Tried all the suggestons so far, including changing settings on the phone to internet, web, wap, GPRS and the various user names and passwords, still no joy. Any further suggestions? anyone specifically using vodafone got it working?

Kind regards

Mark

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Date: 25 May 2003 00:14:02 +0100

From: Colin Messer

Subject: RE: Psion Wap Browser & GPRS

Hi Kevin,

Kevin Collins wrote:

>... I simply used the settings from Mike McConnell's site.

> ... I had to effect two minor "tweaks": username and password "gprs"

> rather than "web", and I entered the o2 (my server) DNS address rather

> than get from server.) On the phone, under access point, I entered "internet".

> It seems to me that o2 here does not differentiate between internet and

> WAP access when using GPRS, and it has been suggested that some

> UK servers - such as Orange - do perhaps place some restriction.

I wonder if you have something here. My account is with Vodafone, and can not access WAP pages (I have multiple checked my setting).. The thread describing success that I found, like you, used o2. Currently this is a very small sample and not statistically significantly. Can I echo Kevin's request. Those on GPRS try to use the WAP browers and please report on your success and your network.

Cork: beautiful place, wonderful Murphys, great sessions.

--------------

Colin Messer

Twickenham

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Date: 25 May 2003 01:48:09 +0100

From: Itamar Engelsman

Subject: Bunch of Fives, CF card,

Answer to: Keith Clarke

Re.: Bunch of Fives - I don't remember exactly but several files and programs are different. Email is one, Contacts is another one as it does not exist on the S5. But why don't you try for abt. the same money to buy a 2nd hand 5MX ? Look at eBay and other auction programs.

Answer to: Chris S Handley

Re. CF card - You have email. I will post the address on the digest towards the end of the coming week when I'll be back in the office again.

Best regards,

Itamar Engelsman

London, UK

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Date: 25 May 2003 01:48:18 +0100

From: Itamar Engelsman

Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY

I totally overlooked the fact that the first Epoc Digest appeared on 15th May 2002 and that we passed the first year mark. In my ZIP file the first digest is dated 26/5/02 so I thought it was this week.

I really had no idea that we would go from strength to strength and that several other people would jump in and join the small team that today keeps it running. Rolf Vonau must be mentioned specially as he has put in many hours of work to create a beautiful digest program that works on all EPOC machines and keeps the work of preparing each digest to a minimum.

I find it amazing that due to the digest I still hear about and find new programs for my S7. The digest will continue as long as there is a reasonable group of subscribers. Thanks to the team, to the subscribers and to all the contributors to the digest.

Best regards,

Itamar Engelsman

London, UK

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Date: 25 May 2003 01:48:19 +0100

From: Itamar Engelsman

Subject: S7 in car

Hi All,

I think I have just found sort of a solution to use my S7 with a GPS in the car. Rolf wrote a while back that he used his S7 with velcro in his car, but I did not want to stick velcro to my dashboard. Well, I just changed cars to a BMW 5 series and the dashboard is flatter than the Mercedes I had before. I took two hooks and attached to each a plastic plug with a wider ring at the top end. The two hooks I pushed through the ventilator output in the car and the plastic ring of the plug stops it from coming out again (however I can take it out by slightly opening the two horizontal bars of the outlet). Now I put my S7 on the dashboard and slide it towards me until the hooks hold it back from the bottom front part. Than I open the S7 completely so the top more or less touches the front screen. My only worry is that it takes away some of the view through the front screen. I will try it out tomorrow and let the digest tknow how I got along.

Best regards,

Itamar Engelsman

London, UK

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Date: 25 May 2003 02:24:57 +0100

From: Mark Deppe

Subject: Re: Opening netbook

<<<My technique is to put my left fingers on the back of the netBook; right thumb on the catch; right fingers on lid; then push catch and lift.>>> I find opening when standing the technique similar to you left fingers wrapped around the spine, but right middle finger along right hand covering PCMIA slot with right thumb operating latch. When netbook is on a table I employ the 2 thumbed approach, with middle finger of each hand running down each side thumbs equally spaced on the latch. Works a treat for me.

Kind Regards

Mark

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Date: 25 May 2003 02:25:05 +0100

From: Mark Deppe

Subject: More GPRS and WAP Browser

Colin Messer wrote <<<To browse a WAP site on your Palm use the same connection settings you use for internet or email.>>>

Oh I thought you had the solution, I tried this and no joy using vodafone, I wonder what is different about O2 as Kevin has it working. Is it possible to use a different Gateway, maybe that is where the error is??

Kind regards

Mar

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Date: 25 May 2003 02:25:13 +0100

From: Mark Deppe

Subject: Re: Mail2web

Itamar Engelsman <<<However, when I tried it and entered my mailbox and password (I tried both Freeserve and Compuserve) I get a whole lot of html language but no list of emails.>>>

I tried it with opera using mail2pda and it worked fine with my freeserve address. What I am not clear on is why I would use it when I can access my mail on the web sites of these service providers direct at the clara, yahoo and freeserve addresses I have?