Epocdigest V1 # 342

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Epoc Digest Thu, 18 Sep 2003 Volume 01 : Number 342

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Sent to: 791 subscribers

In today's Epoc Digest 13 messages:

==============================

- Re: EPOC DIGEST V1 # 341

- Repair Records

- RE: Competition !!

- Psion "Multitasking" # 341

- Re: Revo Battery Solution

- Re: Additional PDA

- Re: Motorola Leaving Symbian

- Re: What if - Netbook Pro...

- Re: More about the netBook Pro

- Fax from an R520 (Ericsson)?

- RE: Mystery Crash

- Re: Mystery crash

- editing, policy regarding massive verbatim postings, TubeRoute,

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 13:06:04 +0000

From: Richard

Subject: Re: EPOC DIGEST V1 # 341

Anne Parry asked about moving between a Psion 5 and 7:

One thing is worth noting is that they have their serial ports oriented differently. The 5 has the serial cable inserted with the two wobbly lines on top, the serial cable is inserted into the 7 with the cables wobbly lines underneath.

Richard

PS - I wasn't dead, just resting.

I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it.

-- Groucho Marx

---------------------------------

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 13:19:34 +0000

From: Andy Hayes

Subject: Repair Records

Hi All

Malcolm asked:

>>Cat-1) Which one of us has spent the most money on Psion repairs?<< >>Cat-2) Which one of us has had his Psion in for the most screen cable fixes?<<

>>Cat-3) Which one us has had the most Psion repairs in the shortest time?<<

Cat1 - Nil - not a single penny!

Cat2 - Nil - Not a single one!

Cat3 - Must be me surely? Four motherboards in 2 years on a series 5, plus all of the other bits they replaced. Thank god for extended warranties! Eventually stolen and replaced by the insurance company by a 7!

Andy Hayes

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 13:42:17 +0000

From: Michael Degn

Subject: RE: Competition !!

Answer to Malcolm Garrett

> Cat-1) Which one of us has spent the most money on Psion repairs? > Cat-2) Which one of us has had his Psion in for the most screen cable fixes?

> Cat-3) Which one us has had the most Psion repairs in the shortest time?

> I currently hold the World record in all three categories.

> Cat-1) £160 with POS

> Cat-2) Twice on a 5MX

> Cat-3) 2 repairs in 18 months

> Ok gang - beat that!

Dear Malcolm,

When I bought my 5mx I made an extra insurance to cover all repairs, damages or whatever. It did cost about £150 or so. I knew it would pay off in the end and it certainly did. Here are my repairs for the 5mx. 06.07.00 - broken screen cable & broken power plug

17.04.01 - broken screen cable

05.01.02 - broken screen cable

29.05.02 - broken hinge inside

That is 4 repairs within 22 months - beat that <BG>

I guess that entitles me to hold the record of category 2 & 3.

Best regards,

Michael Degn

Esbjerg, Denmark

www.degn.esenet.dk

www.pdanmark.dk

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 16:57:48 +0000

From: vlad a

Subject: Psion "Multitasking" # 341

> Epoc Digest wrote:

> the OS doesn't allow you to run two instances of a single program at the same > time. (Like two Data files, or two spreadsheets)

Afaik it does: just hold alt and open two different data bases, fi. In the sysem screen you have the setting for it.

best,

vlad

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:57:16 +0000

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: Revo Battery Solution

Dear Itamar,

<< Now, from a _practical_ point of view only, even on a 7 hour flight one would not use the computer for 6 hours. You rest, watch a movie, get food, sleep, etc. so both machines will stay powered during a flight >>

I've used a Psion on an Amsterdam to Miami flight from seatbelts off after take-off to seatbelts on before landing with only one interruption for dinner. The reason was a very *practical* one. The company I worked for at the time was bidding for a world-wide supply contract. We'd just received the tender documents from the customer and I used the flight to write our comments on the technical specifications. To which I added some remarks and suggestions for my boss, the marketing manager, on equipment selection, alternative bids, etc. First thing I did when I was in my Miami hotel room was to send the comments out by e-mail, together with the extras.

<< But what if I would take a night flight and have a day's work upon arrival ? >>

The most important thing I do during a night flight is : Sleep. I take a fruit juice when drinks are served after take off, go to sleep and wake up when I detect the smells of breakfast being served. It's the best remedy against jet-lag and ensures that I'm sufficiently rested to tackle the day ahead. It means that I'll hardly use my Psion during a night flight. In case My Psion = My Revo I'll have sufficient charge in the Revo's batteries for the next day.

Note that you talked about a 7-hour flight in the message that triggered this exchange without any qualifications. I therefore took the worst case scenario of somebody using the whole duration of the flight in which (s)he's allowed to use the Psion. When the batteries last for this period you can honestly say that Psion model 'X' is a suitable device.

<< The s7 just needs a change of battery, the REVO can't do that >>

My device of choice for business travel is the Series 5(mx). First, because it last longer on fully charged batteries than either the Revo or the Series 7. Nor do I need to worry about recharging in time or carrying a spare battery pack. I can buy AA-size alkaline batteries at the airport, at news agents, grocery stores, chemists, etc.

<< However, as you said yourself you recharge the REVO 4-12 hours overnight .. Although not fully recharged with shorter charging, one can charge the S7 for half an hour or an hour (in car) and get several hours of work without problems, not so the REVO (according to many people) >>

I'm sorry, Itamar, but you keep moving the goalposts. We started this discussion with a 65% charged Revo. You don't need 4-12 hours to recharge this Revo. The 4-12 hours is the result of me putting the Revo on its cradle before I go to bed and removing it from the cradle the next morning. And I clearly added that this is *more* than sufficient to get the Revo fully charged. I think that half an hour on a car charger will be sufficient to get a 65% charged Revo up to 100%. And the Revo won't go completely bonkers when you remove it from the car charger at (say) 89% charge because you've arrived at the location where your going to need it.

Have I always followed my 4-12 hours charging routine and the answer is a clear "No". There have been situations in which I could only partially recharge the Revo. That it's best to connect the Revo to the power supply and give its internal charge controller the time to do its work doesn't imply that you have to do this each and every time you need to recharge a Revo.

<< Listen, I don't say the REVO is a bad machine, I think it was in the end the best sold Psion, but I don't want to buy into a potential battery problem ... >>

As I said previously, people suffer the most from what they fear. What you're read about recharging a Revo has given you a fright. It's as if you need to give the right prayers, make the right movements and that in the right order. And that all hell will break loose when you don't do it right, like moving clockwise when you should have moved anti-clockwise. It's not like that. There's a 'Best Practice' you're recommended to follow but can be deviated from if need be.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Lochailort - Scotland

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:57:19 +0000

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: Additional PDA

Dear Itamar,

<< The prices are interesting, and just out of interest, which one would you (and others) advise from this list ? >>

As you'd like to have a simple PDA I'd recommend the original Palm Zire for its low price or the Sony Clié PEG-SJ33 as its the most economical PDA with a colour screen. It means that you'll have to learn Graffiti handwriting recognition or to use an on-screen keyboard for data entry. Which won't be such a barrier to using the Zire/SJ33 as the majority of data on it will be a copy of your Series 7 diary and contacts database. Using an on-screen keyboard will be fine for the occasional appointment/contact entry.

<< Nowaday's Phoneman will not synchronise the multiple phonenumbers per contact anymore (AFAIK) ... >>

Depends on the phone you have or are going to buy.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Fort William - Scotland

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:57:21 +0000

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: Motorola Leaving Symbian

Dear Chris,

<< If Nokia has a big ownership of Symbian, then short term this is good (cos Nokia are successful), BUT long term it is bad because other phone manufacturers may think Symbian is no better than WinCE (Microsoft), and there is no guarantee that Nokia will always dominate the market >>

I can't escape the impression that your view is more influenced by Microsoft that it is by Nokia. Not every company that's able to achieve a predominant position in a particular market segment turns into a Microsoft-like company.

Nokia was once very diversified. It was into saw mills and paper mills, electronics, rubber and polymers and what have you. The management decided to bet the whole company on mobile telephony (to be more specific : GSM) and sold off the bulk of its activities to raise the necessary finances. GSM is an open standard and Nokia was one of the industrial parties to work on it. The practical implementation also required cooperation and collaboration as a Nokia GSM phone had to work on an Ericsson supplied GSM network and vice versa. Nokia is also active in a wide range of open standards groups. Either as (one of the) initiators or as an early member. Nokia isn't a member of these standards groups simply to have an easy ride. When it's a member it does the work that's expected of it. Knowing very well that when the standard is ratified it needs to battle it out with its fellow standards group members in the marketplace.

Look at the way Nokia has handled the EPOC operating system. It could have done a Microsoft by making a bid for Psion Software. Or, when that wasn't possible, to buy the whole Psion Group, selling off what it didn't need. It didn't do so. Nokia was one of the founding fathers of a *joint-venture* together with Psion and arch rival Ericsson. Nokia didn't prevent Motorola from joining Symbian and hasn't prevented Sony, Matsushita, Siemens and Samsung coming on board. Companies which like to be the world's no. 1 mobile phone manufacturer Nokia currently is.

Compare this with Microsoft, a company that's run by a rather paranoid bunch of people. A company that's intent to dominate by squeezing out (possible) competitors. When that doesn't work, it either embraces them and squeezes them to death or buys them outright. Remember the brash words by Steve Balmer shortly after Symbian was founded? He'd go to Nokia and Ericsson and would get their decision to form Symbian reversed? Well ... Nokia and Ericsson said in diplomatic words that he'd be welcome, that he'd be listened to, but that he shouldn't expect a sudden change of mind. Balmer's subsequent visit didn't change their minds. Remember the famous (leaked) internal memo by Bill Gates a few months after Motorola joined Symbian? Gates mentioned Symbian as one of the top five threats to Microsoft. As if EPOC would rapidly move from the PDA/smartphone to the desktop, laptop and server. As if a Symbian Office would rapidly start to play games with Microsoft Office. Gates mentioned Symbian as a threat because Nokia, Ericsson and Motorola didn't choose Microsoft. Fat chance when Microsoft didn't have a smartphone strategy while Psion Software had. When Windows CE was far from ready to run on a smartphone while EPOC was.

Nokia isn't a Microsoft. It's a healthy mixture of vision, initiative, cooperation and collaboration. A company that's not adverse to creating a level playing field before the game begins. Nokia's basis is telecommunications in which interoperability is of prime importance. Microsoft, on the other hand, will keep fiddling with the rules and will keep moving the goalposts till the game is in its favour.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:57:23 +0000

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: What if - Netbook Pro...

Dear David,

<< Again, you are the voice of reason >>

It's more a voice of experience. I've worked for an industrial instrument manufacturer (ENRAF) where I started as a sales engineer and was product manager when I left. I've therefore handled similar requests for customer specific variants.

<< It is interesting when PT tells me that we have listened to the customer and produced the hardware they asked for - hang on, aren't all those users running OS5? >>

Psion Teklogix supplies the netBook with either Windows CE or Symbian OS 5 for about two years already. The netBooks you see advertised by such retailers as Clove Technology, Expansys and Widget are supplies with Symbian OS 5.

<< OK Swiss Federal Railways buys 4,000 Netbooks and develops OS5 applications to run on them, in early 2004 they need more Netbooks - PT can't build more Netbooks as there are no more parts, only the Netbook Pro. So the only option is to redevelop the application to run on a pCE machine. Is it that infamous Psion support again? >>

It won't be because the market Psion Teklogix is operating in is strongly customer project driven. Whatever Psion Teklogix supplies will have to be supplied for the whole duration of the project. Which includes the operational phase in which the customer is using the equipment in its daily activities. The project period for Swiss Federal Railways could very well end in 2008. Meaning that Psion Teklogix has to supply a replacement netBook when of Swiss Federal Railways' employees succeeds in damaging his/her netBook beyond repair in (say) 2006. How it's going to do that is for Psion Teklogix to decide.

Every company working in such an environment knows what its has to do when product A is to be replaced by product B. That is, checking its long term commitments and taking appropriate action. To give you an example, the company I worked for had a project with three supply phases. Trouble was that the customer kept postponing phases 2 and 3. We were already working on a successor to the equipment we had to supply and saw that phase 3 would come at a time when the product would be out of production. What we did was to purchase all the necessary parts to manufacture the phase 3 equipment. When the customer, finally, gave us the go-ahead for phase 3 we manufactured the equipment in our prototype workshop as the factory had already been changed for the production of the new product.

Now, this is an example in which we knew what was coming. It doesn't cover a situation like Swiss Federal Railways deciding to expand its project by another 1,000 netBooks in 2005. Psion Teklogix doesn't have the means to anticipate such an order as it can't read the customer's mind. It's Swiss Federal Railways that has to indicate that an additional order is on the cards. How such an order is to be handled will be subject to negotiations. It can be agreed that:

a) Swiss Federal Railways will inform Psion Teklogix before date 'X' about the maximum number of additional netBooks it intends to buy. This allows Psion Teklogix to take the necessary measure like the stocking of components and subassemblies.

b) No information at date 'X' means Swiss Federal Railways won't buy additional netBooks.

c) Swiss Federal Railways will inform Psion Teklogix before date 'Y' about the definitive number of additional netBooks it will buy as well as a delivery schedule.

d) No information at date 'Y' means Swiss Federal Railways won't buy additional netBooks and will pay Psion Teklogix a compensation fee of x-thousand US dollars.

<< This is where Microsoft gets it right, if you start with them you know you can stick with them and your applications will likely run on new hardware ... >>

If only that were true. Microsoft keeps changing its APIs as well as introducing new APIs. Nor can you be sure that when your application runs on Windows CE device 'P' it will also run on device 'Q' because of DLL differences. Then there's the fact as such H/PC format devices as the HP Jornada 720 disappearing from the market.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Evanton - Scotland

*++++++++++&

Date: 17 Sep 2003 18:57:27 +0000

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: More about the netBook Pro

Trygve,

<< But what the users want is a netBook Pro WITH drivers for the new hardware, right? >>

It's David who wants to place an order for 500 netBooks Pro running Symbian OS 5. The implication is that a number of hardware features won't function because Symbian OS 5 doesn't support them. That's David's customers want to get more than that is something for David.

<< Only if they plan to add anything not already IN the new machine >>

David's plan is based on Symbian OS 5 not Symbian OS 7. Psion Teklogix may therefore need different components or the same component in a different specification.

<< Also only for HW modifications... >>

Forget it! A netBook running Symbian OS 5 doesn't exist. Meaning that you can't send an order for 500 of them into the factory without the instructions how the factory has to build and test them. What you need is a new component plan, new assembly instructions, new test protocol, etc. The component plan is also needed for logistical and purchase management to ensure that the right components are there at the right time. The whole documentation set is also needed for CE and FCC certification (see below).

<< Very limited, and only last stages >>

Come on, Trygve! We're dealing with a 'customer' special that's not known within the whole Psion Teklogix organisation. The production of 500 of these requires as much care and attention as guiding the pre-production series of a new model through the whole organisation.

<< Any OS (with the exception of Linux or Aros, of course) costs >>

Psion Teklogix will have existing licensing arrangements with Symbian. What needs to checked is whether the production of 500 netBooks Pro running Symbian OS 5 is covered by these arrangements. If not, a special arrangement needs to be made, which can have cost implications.

<< Only if the users want something not in the current netBook >>

I mentioned third-party software licensing because it can't be eliminate off hand at this stage.

<< Aren't those HW certificates? >>

Both CE and FCC certificates are device certificates rather than hardware certificates. How the software controls the hardware can have an effect on its CE/FCC classification. Replacing Windows ce.NET plus its applications by Symbian OS 5 plus its applications is a major change to the device. What needs to be investigated is whether a Symbian OS 5 netBook Pro can be covered by an addendum to the existing certificates, needs to go through a fast-track verification or requires a completely new certificate.

What you do need for these certificates is a complete set of technical and construction documents plus a complete description of the in-factory test and verification procedures plus a complete quality assurance plan for the product. This to show what has been changed and remains unchanged in comparison to the ce.NET netBook Pro, how you're going to check that the device works as expected and how you're going to ensure that the device that leaves the factory is what the customer ordered. In other words, the same documentation the factory, logistical manager, purchasing manager and QA manager need to do their jobs.

CE will be relatively easy as the netBook Pro falls under the self-certification provisions. That is, Psion Teklogix will need to perform and document a series of tests that show that a Symbian OS 5 netBook Pro meets the requirements. FCC always requires independent third-party testing. It's also the more inflexible of the two. In my experience there's only one certification body more inflexible that FCC - CSA, the Canadian Standards Authority.

<< Here comes the big OUCH! >>

Creating the customer documentation for a Symbian OS 5 netBook Pro may not be as tough as it sounds because you can reuse large parts of the user manual and help file of the current netBook. It requires care and attention, though, as you need to filter out all netBook specific texts, instructions and illustrations.

<< With the same HW as the ce.NET model, it shouldn't add up to much >>

You're not dealing with a device that's in regular production, has a wide range of customers and is subject to the normal hardware and software revisions plus in-factory production improvements and refinements. You're dealing with a special product that's going to be manufactured in a one-off series of 500 units for one particular customer (David). What you therefore loose are the balancing out effects of a regular product. It's normal for the first production series of a product to have more warranty claims than the 35th production series. You therefore base your warranty provisions on an average for the expected total production run rather than the first production series. You can't do that for a one-off series of 500 units.

<< I'll refrain from commenting about Psion and Support... >>

As if Psion (Computers) = Psion (Dacom) = Psion (Teklogix). As if there's no difference between the technical support for consumer products and the technical support for (semi-)industrial products.

<< I'm afraid that I must agree with you on that point. Unless PT feel VERY certain to get a whole lot of repeat orders they're unlikely to take the bait on the first order. And with the PDA market as it is, those orders are not very likely to appear in large enough numbers >>

Forget about the PDA market! This concerns what looks to be a single order of 500 customer specials. Say that the enquiry didn't come from David but from the UK branch of the hamburger chain McDonalds. What Psion Teklogix' sales staff would check is whether McDonalds UK is expanding so that it might need more than 500 in the near future. It would also investigate whether it's possible to sell these customer (= McDonalds UK) specials to the other McDonalds operations in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, etc. That's what I mean by repeat orders - what's the chance that you'll sell more than 500.

<< Actually, they are, but they're not the kind that wait for passersbys on a dimly lit street... >>

So you consider companies to be prostitutes. Well ... I've written my reply to David using my professional experience in sales and product management for two manufacturers of industrial instruments. It appear that you consider my previous employers as prostitutes and, by implication, the people who work (and have worked) for them prostitutes as well.

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 18 Sep 2003 04:53:52 +0000

From: David Froggatt

Subject: Fax from an R520 (Ericsson)?

Hi all,

Wonderful to see the digest still doing it for the community...

I have been searching the digest on the net (and all the sites I can find to no avail) for a workaround to allow me to send faxes via I/R from my netbook and through my R520 ericsson.

I found a few references in the digest (but not enough to set up a modem in ControlPanel);

/digests/00027.html

Date: 7 Jul 2002 01:49:27 +0100

From: Darryl Kempster

Subject: Ericsson R520/Converting DATA to PC format/Opera vs Web

"except that Ericsson in their wisdom have disabled the fax by infrared option. Have to use the RS232 cable which (1) doesn't plug into my psion ; (2) you have to buy separately.

A digestee in Australia helped me round this by selecting fax class 1 (thanks again!), which does work although haven't as yet seen the end result myself. I have a separate "R520fax" setting in "Modems" for this."

digests/00072.html

Date: 10.09.2002 13:17:07

From: Jason Garbutt

Subject: Successful fax reception - T39 & Psion5 !

Hi all,

There has been some discussion about the inability to receive faxes with a T39 !

Well, I've now managed to sort all my settings out, and can now send AND receive faxes on my S5C via my Ericsson T39m and Orange.

If anyone would like the settings, please let me know.

Regards,

Jason

digests/00077.html

Date: 16 Sep 2002 11:11:41 +0100

From: Jason Garbutt

Subject: Re: Successful fax reception - T39 & Psion5 !

As requested -

Ericsson T39 - fax settings

Name: T39(fax)

Speed: 9600

Connect via: Infrared

Fax class: 2

Loudspeaker: Always

Volume: anything

Pause: 4

Init: ATZ

Data:

Fax: ATS0=2

Flow control: none

Terminal detect: unticked

Carrier detect: unticked

NOTE: The other key thing you need is a mobile fax number

from your mobile provider, it will NOT work through your

ordinary mobile number.

Regards,

Jason

Could someone please help me with the set up for Faxing via Infrared from my netbook and Ericsson R520 please as I'm now at a dead end?

PS In Aus' we are able to send faxes directly through our voice number (DI 28/t28 etc.) but get hammered with the faxbox charges...

With Thanks and Regards,

Dave

Adelaide,

South Australia

*++++++++++&

Date: 18 Sep 2003 08:44:14 +0000

From: Okell Kevin

Subject: RE: Mystery Crash

>> A mystery affliction has gripped our 2 psions at the same >> time, my 5mx and my wife's netbook. Both have taken to

>> completely freezing whilst connected to the internet... >

I am experiencing the same problems with both a Revo and Revo Plus when using email to access a mailbox via either Firenet or BTOpenworld. The Revos are completely frozen and I'm having to do a soft reset. Sometimes they lock up as soon as I try to connect, sometimes I get as far as seeing the message headers but they lock as soon as I try to open a message. Haven't tried Web yet and I've just set up another ISP account with UKUConnect to see if it makes any difference. If anyone discovers what's going on, I'll be very relieved.

Kevin Okell

*++++++++++&

Date: 18 Sep 2003 09:37:00 +0000

From: Chris S Handley

Subject: Re: Mystery crash

Update to previous 2 emails:

By using the Epoc Emulator on an empty (new) C drive, and getting the same results, I can only conclude that my ISP (BT Internet/Openworld) is to blame. Interestingly, the emulator doesn't *quite* freeze, so that eventually I can Ctrl-U to disconnect; when this happens, EPOC returns to normal-ish (runs normal speed but seems slightly unstable).

Somehow my ISP is causing the EPOC OS to get confused when talking to the modem, so that it consumes all available CPU time. Any method which stops the OS talking to the modem gets it out of the "busy loop".

I would be *most* interested to hear if other BT Internet/Openworld (56K modem) users do or don't get similar problems with their Psion devices. I am using the dial-up number 0808 9933001.

---

damn annoyed, Chris Handley

>> Yesterday I did a complete hard reset, and reseated the

>> RAM/ROM modules on my Netbook. Very early signs are that

>> *may* have fixed it, but...

> Nope. This did not fix it :-(((((

> So either it is a Psion software problem (somehow), or it is

> ISP related. Help!

*++++++++++&

Date: 18 Sep 2003 09:38:30 +0000

From: Itamar Engelsman

Subject: editing, policy regarding massive verbatim postings, TubeRoute,

Answer to: Alan Morris

Re.: editing - You wrote "complete with all the Yahoo junk that's missing here". It was not for nothing that in the end we decided not to use Yahoo and to keep the running of the digest on our Psion machines. It takes a little more time and manpower, but it is worth it !

Answer to: Chris S Handley

Re. policy regarding massive verbatim postings - I think the overriding factor is that we don't edit or censor the digest. As i mentioned recently, some time ago we once had to do it to stop a certain unfriendly discussion and many members voiced opposition to any form of censor at all. In this light we will allow occaosional "massive verbatim postings".

Answer to: Chris S Handley

Re. TubeRoute - Ah ....hmmmm....thanks and sorry. I'll have a look at your program soon again.