Epocdigest V1 # 312

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tips for Posting to the Digest and how to unsubscribe

at the end of the Digest

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Epoc Digest Wed, 06 Aug 2003 Volume 01 : Number 312

************************************************************************

Sent to: 803 subscribers

In today's Epoc Digest 17 messages:

==============================

- Remapping silks

- Re: FastBackup

- REAL alternatives to the Netbook?

- Does anyone sell ready made Revo/Mako battery packs?

- Malaybook vs. netBook

- Zaurus C700/750/760

- PEG-UX50..., Dying OS,

- Re: Re : holidays in france (4 Gianluca)

- Re: Revo Form-Factor Successor

- Re: Revo Form-Factor Successor...

- Does anyone know a symple way to exchange files

- Dead cheap accus and charger

- Re: Data as RDBMS

- Re: The future of Symbian OS

- Re: WinCE

- Re: PEG-UX50...

- Re: WinCE

*++++++++++&

Date: 3 Aug 2003 21:09:13 +0100

From: Astrid Stappenbeck

Subject: Remapping silks

Hi,

some digests ago I asked about a way of remapping Data to Infrared while retaining the switch function (i.e. when calling data again it will switch to the next open data file). Ulrich Hornstein had data set above Contacts and could so get this function by pressing Ctrl + Contacts.

Well, I now managed to remap Data to Contacts (retaining full functionality of course) and Contacts (nothing to switch here) to Infrared by fiddling with shell.ini.

However, I would still prefer the original idea (keeping contacts at its icon and mapping data to infrared). Is there really no way to do it?

And thanks, Stephane, for recommending MenueS5 but I still don't like it, have registered Extrabars for ages and wanted a remap for even easier on screen switching for when I have already opened the files.

For those who would like a full remap: I found the following in S5tips to download at http://www.brandwood.force9.co.uk/

or http://www.compulink.co.uk/~rtpoole/s5tips.htm

>> Re-Define Silk Screen Icons

>> Here are some instructions for redefining the Silkscreen icons (the buttons at the bottom of the display) on a Psion Series 5:

>> The operating system - or, more precisely, the shell which is responsible for starting the different applications - considers the silkscreen as a part of the extras bars. The positions are numbered, starting from 0 (the System icon), through 1 (Word icon) to 7 (the Sketch icon). Number 8 is the position above the word icon, number 15 the position above the Extras icon, and so on.

>> The layout of the Extra bars is stored in the file "c:\system\apps\shell\shell.ini". This file also contains the definitions for the silkscreen icons, but while the layout of the rest of the extras bars can be changed in the control panel, the meaning of the silkscreen icons cannot be changed so easily. Here are instructions for doing it by hand, using a hex editor such as FileDump. [ I used RMRText ]

>> Let's assume you want to start the web browser whenever you press the Sheet icon on the silkscreen. First use the control panel to select a fixed position for the web browser on your Extras bar. Row one above the sheet icon would be a good choice. [ You really have at least to confirm the settings in the Control Panel ! ]

>> Now start Filedump on "c:\system\apps\shell\shell.ini", and look for the strings "Sheet" and "Web". In front of the string there is a single byte that indicates the length of the string. The four bytes in front of that are the unique id of the applications. In front of that, there are three zero bytes, and then there is a byte that contains the position of the application on the extras bar. In our case, you should see the byte 02 in front of Sheet (if you counted, it should be the ninth byte counting backwards from the "S" of sheet), and 09 in front of Web. Simply exchange the values of these two bytes, i.e. put 09 in front of Sheet, and 02 in front of Web. Save the file back to its original location. [ remember it's hex so above Contacts 0A not 10 ]

>> Now you have to do a soft reboot to make the shell read the modified ini file. Be careful not to do anything that would make the shell rewrite the file before you reboot (i.e. do not change the extras bar or any system preferences).

>> Voila, press the Sheet icon. Your web browser should come up. You can check the extras bar to see that Sheet is now on the position where Web had been before - on row one above the Sheet icon. You can therefore start Sheet by holding Control when you press the Sheet icon.

>> Nothing can really go wrong when you do this. If you really mess up the file, the system will simply discard it and overwrite it using the default settings. [ I made a backup ]

>> Enjoy!

>> Otfried

Good luck,

Astrid

*++++++++++&

Date: 3 Aug 2003 21:24:23 +0100

From: Alan Morris

Subject: Re: FastBackup

Chris S Handley wrote:-

<< with my virtually finished FastBackup program, it is very feasible for me to swap my 1Gb Microdrive between Netbook & Tablet PC, and share all my files (inc C drive). >>

Is this going to be available to Digest members Chris ?

Now that laptops have lost their serial port(s), running PsiWin has become a major loss for some - like my new laptop.

Also as Itamar Engelsman wrote:-

<< So I took a card reader with me from home today and backed up the D disk in ... 4 minutes !! Even for this the reader was worth it's price in gold (but I use it regularly for my photography CF cards as well). >>

I also use a card reader for my photography CF cards, in a new laptop and have been considering this method to replace the serial link.

Alan R Morris, G4ENS.

Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, UK.

Using a Psion 7 & Nokia 6210e.

*++++++++++&

Date: 3 Aug 2003 22:33:06 +0100

From: Simon Wolf

Subject: REAL alternatives to the Netbook?

Having had this topic started with myself being named as an example of people moving on I thought it might be interesting for some subscribers if I explained why I decided to move on from Psions and how I am now getting on with my iBook one week on.

For quite a while now I have been using a Palm PDA and a netBook to supplement my PC and to fulfill my computing needs. My Palm Tungsten T does a great job of letting me carry my diary, contacts, tasks and notes around and, due to its small form factor, I can easily slip the device into a front pocket of my trousers. A 5mx is just too big and heavy for this and I never really go on with Revos due to their charging problems (I want to be able to decide when to charge my PDA, not have it dictate that I can only charge it when the battery falls below a certain level and then only recharge it if the moon is full after a dry day). The great down-side to Palms as far as I am concerned, however, is the the screen is very small (despite having a resolution of 320x320) and I would love a landscape screen and a keyboard (not thumb board) built-in. I therefore tended to use my netBook for 'power' jobs such as project planning, emails, surfing the web, writing documents when out and about, etc.

On the whole this was a good arrangement but recently a few things began to frustrate me:

- Confirmation from a Psion Teklogix source that bluetooth would never make it onto the netBook was a blow. I'd love to be able to send and receive emails and SMSs without having to line my mobile phone up with the netBook. In addition, it was confirmed that ER5 has now reached the end of its life as far as Teklogix was concerned, i.e. there most likely would not be any new versions of the netBook OS and any bugs and issues are now there for life.

- The Opera web browser is very buggy and has problems with several sites and really didn't offer me a good web browsing experience. Other people might find it fine but I just found it frustrating and limiting.

Opera have also confirmed that development of the ER5 Opera has ceased so the bugs and problems are here to stay.

- The exodus of many software authors is not a problem in that there is a very good library of software available but many authors are

unwilling (or unable) to continue work on their software. nConvert is not perfect but it looks like it is the best it will be. Another

author that I contacted about suggestion for some of their software essentially said that there was no point in further developing the applications because the registration market is all but dead and there

is no incentive to continue. It's sad but I can't blame them.

More out of curiosity I decided to look into alternatives to the

netBook that would be more suited to my needs. I didn't need a PDA replacement since I am happy with my Palm and a netBook replacement wouldn't be carried with me everywhere (my netBook mostly lives on my desk next to my PC) but I did want:

- Instant-on if possible (being able to switch on, connect to the internet, collect emails and look things up on the web and then close-down quickly).

- Good battery life.

- Good software library, including personal banking, word processing, spreadsheets, email, web browsing, newsgroup access and instant messengers.

- Cost effective.

- Good community support.

- Bluetooth and WiFi support.

After some investigating I came across the Apple iBook which is almost perfect for my needs with the downsides being that is is a little

larger than the netBook, it is about twice as heavy and the battery

life is only around three hours. These weren't show-stoppers for me however since the machine would mainly stay at home and the benefits

for me outweighed these by far. The iBook would start up from standby in a second or so and would go to sleep in a similar time so, although not as instant as the netBook, it is a lot better than Windows manages

to achieve. The 12" screen has a maximum resolution of 1024 x 768 and is usable in sunlight too. OS X is based on Unix and is therefore very stable and a crashed application is very unlikely to being the whole OS to a halt. There is a large library of software for Apples and the community seems to be very friendly and quite Psion-like.

Last Monday my new 12" iBook arrived and I have to say that I am delighted with it. I had never used a Mac before and it is very different to Windows indeed. I am still getting to grips with things

and I think that I will still be doing so for a few more weeks but it

is all becoming much more familiar and I am getting more and more comfortable with it. OS X (the latest Apple operating system) has some wonderful features (applications and their associated files are all

kept together so to delete or just more an application you drag its

icon to the trash can or another folder and that is it. No registry,

no system folders, no mess. Lovely.) and Apple are very style

conscious and most application look good and behave in a similar fashion, similar to the strong ER5 design guidelines in fact. Moving data over to the iBook has been very easy, not only because Apples can network with Windows (which is lovely after having to use FTP between

my netBook and Windows PC) but also because many applications are available for the Mac that I use under Windows (Adobe Acrobat, Word, Excel, Palm Desktop, etc.). The novelty value really hasn't worn off

yet and I am still thrilled at having enormous fun just trying things out. I am now also using the iBook for things that I would not have

used the netBook for such as emails (I have a large archive of messages that I don't think my netBook could have coped with), web browsing (Apple's Safari is a great alternative to IE), MP3s, DVD watching and more.

I am still exploring the iBook and what it can do for me but, after a week of use, I can safely say that EPOC is now a thing of the past for

me (gone but definitely not forgotten) and I am pleased that I put my Psion nostalgia behind me and decided to look at what I wanted to do rather than what I could do with what I had. As a replacement for a largely desk-bound device it is proving to be very good but I don't

think that I would want to carry it around with me all of the time (or even much of the time!) so perhaps it is not a good substitute for someone looking for something light and portable. It definitely isn't

a PIM device but then again I never considered my netBook to fit that role either. However it is a very powerful machine in a small shell

and its operating system is a very welcome alternative to Windows.

More to come ...

Simon Wolf

*++++++++++&

Date: 3 Aug 2003 23:08:40 +0100

From: Christopher Gharibo

Subject: Does anyone sell ready made Revo/Mako battery packs?

Does anyone sell ready made Revo/Mako battery packs?

Thanks,

Chris

This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain information that is

protected by law as privileged and confidential, and is transmitted for the

sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying or retention of this

e-mail or the information contained herein is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply

e-mail or telephone and permanently delete this e-mail and its copies and

prints. Thank

you.

*++++++++++&

Date: 4 Aug 2003 01:35:48 +0100

From: Euan Mee

Subject: Malaybook vs. netBook

Could someone point me in the direction of a website that details the specific shortcomings of a Malaysian school-project surplus netBook with respect to the standard netBook?

Or just detail them?

I've suddenly found some money that's suspiciously close to the $450 that I think is the current price of a malayBook...

Cheers,

Euan

xlucid

this).sf.(antispam.)net

*++++++++++&

Date: 4 Aug 2003 07:49:00 +0100

From: Mike Woodward

Subject: Zaurus C700/750/760

Reply to Itamar

To hopefully clarify my original post

The Zaurus operating system supports the opening of multiple files, but have

not found any application that supports opening more than 1 file at a time, so

you can open a Word & Excel document but can't open 2 Word documents at the

same time.

No incremental backup option so you have to do a full backup every time.

I believe that the Psion EPOC operating system still has more functionality

than any other PDA, let down by not keeping up with the latest hardware

advances.

If only someone could port the EPOC operating system to another hardware

platform.

Mike Woodward

*++++++++++&

Date: 4 Aug 2003 13:42:17 +0100

From: Itamar Engelsman

Subject: PEG-UX50..., Dying OS,

Answer to: Mike Fellhauer

Re.: PEG-UX50... - Sorry if I misread your message. I still would be interested to hear from anyone who bought this machine (and the Sharp) about their experiences.

Answer to: koihin & martin

Re. Dying OS - I understand your remarks that the EPOC OS is not dying, but for us, the users of EPOC machines, the end will one day come of using EPOC machines unless someone will start to produce these again. Having used a S7 for a year now I don't think I would go back to a 5MX size machine and the next generation nB as we know will be windowsCE only (for the time being). That EPOC lives on in mobile phones and other devices has no practical use for me. In the current situation I would most probably move to the windowsCE netBook version when my S7 dies on me. But I don't need a camera on my PDA, I don't need WIFI or bluetooth either so as long as it works I am happy. I think we all understand each other, even if some of us called it a "dying OS" and others a "dying PDA". However, I do think that the software houses stopped developing for the EPOC PDA's. TomTom stopped with the route- and streetplanner machines, Neuon has stopped and many more. We can't expect many new programs anymore for our machines but from EPOC enthousiasts who develop for their own fun and for the good of the EPOC "community". Sooner or later this digest will slowly reduce the number of subscribers as well, unavoidable. Lastly, while I appreciate the thought behind the petition personally I don't think it will make any difference at all. The decision to move on with windowsCE was taken undoubtedly in light of consumer reaction and market research of the market segment that buys these machines, which is mainly and foremost a business market. They need compatibillity with both PC's, servers as well as updated technology that EPOC does not have and would cost far too much to develop.

Best regards,

Itamar Engelsman

London, UK

*++++++++++&

Date: 4 Aug 2003 18:39:40 +0100

From: Stephan Block

Subject: Re: Re : holidays in france (4 Gianluca)

In EPOC DIGEST V1 # 311 (18) , Jack wrote on 2 Aug 2003 09:54:34 :

> To: Gianluca Gallino Subject: holidays in france X nB (gprs

> connection)

> [...]

> >>>are there any pay-as-you-go card which enable you to browse on the

> internet on a forfait basis?

> RE

> SFR (part of Vodafone roaming network) and FTorange or BOT do sell

> PAYG SIM (from 15 to 60 Euro) which allows MMS WAP and GPRS x a 6

> Euro/month base forfait.

AFAIK the unlimited WAP for 6 euros/month is only applicable if you have a contract ("forfait"). Prepaid (at least on Orange, that's what I use) does allow Internet access (Web and email at least, I don't use other services via my mobile phone) as well as WAP on a pay-per-minute basis. It's a shame but I don't know the exact tariff. I think it's about 25 or 30 cents per minute, in any case cheaper than accessing the "local tariff" number of free.fr or Wanadoo (if such a number still exists, have a look at their web site, you need a number that does not start with 08xx). Once you have activated the SIM card, you can sign up for a free email address on www.orange.fr. You can access that mailbox via WAP, POP/SMTP (this works very well with a Psion) and via a Web interface if all else fails. AFAIK none of the french operators provide GPRS on their prepaid SIM cards.

Best regards

Stephan, Lyon, France

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 01:57:05 +0100

From: Edward J. Curtis, Jr.

Subject: Re: Revo Form-Factor Successor

Martin Maxwell wrote: "The petition is YOUR VOTE for the continued existence of more netBook/5mx-like devices based on EPOC/Symbian OS."

Frankly, I wish someone would just continue to manufacture the Revo (not even the Revo Plus). If they could fit some sort of storage device in the Revo, that would be gravy. Ever since I got over the battery problem three or so years ago, I've been using the Revo daily for day-to-day tasks, carrying it in the pocket of my pants or jacket, and even touch-typing extensive notes during trials (I'm a trial lawyer, not a programmer, which probably explains a lot right there). The keyboard, multi-tasking, and overall utility of the Revo is just terrific. I can't see the point of a 5 or 5MX if you don't carry it in your purse. My 5 and 5MX were stolen in a burglary and it took me two weeks to notice, and I only noticed because I was going to show those two bookends to a guest. The Series 7 I own is hardly more functional than a laptop, aside from its instant-on feature. The Revo is excellent, and it's a real shame that Psion screwed up the batteries when it was introduced, because it leaves everything else in the dust.

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 06:25:06 +0100

From: Jim Watson-Gove

Subject: Re: Revo Form-Factor Successor...

Jann,

<<What is a Dana? >>

A Dana is a machine evolved from the AlphaSmart which is a minimalist basic computer designed for schoolroom use. The AlphaSmart (manufactured by AlphaSmart) is around $200 I believe, is almost indestructible and runs forever on a set of batteries.

AlphaSmart then designed an upgraded version - 8 megs of RAM, larger screen. It uses the Palm OS with programs redesigned to make use of the larger screen. It has two memory card slots and the machine runs a bit over $400.

It is too large to carry in a pocket (it has a full sized keyboard) but I carry mine around in a school back pack (also offered by AlphaSmart). I carry my Treo 90 (also Palm OS - I IR transfer data between them) in my shirt pocket, and my 5mx in my pants pocket. All three have areas where they shine so I am loath to give up any of them. If I had to settle for one machine, it would be the 5mx, but sometime in the distant future it looks like the 5mx (IMO the best of the Psion line despite the color of the 7 and NetBook) will be history. Palm OS machines (IMO) despite their limitations (slowly being addressed) will be out in front. The best don't always win, or is it simply how we define "best."

AlphaSmart is bringing out an upgraded Dana at the beginning of the school term that has wireless, and 16 megs of RAM. They are also bringing out, at the same time, a full screen browser and a full screen EMail client (Snappermail works fine but a full screen client is better and the Dana software will be tied into their (now - upgraded) excellent spell check program).

jim - port townsend

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 12:12:11 +0100

From: Alberto

Subject: Does anyone know a symple way to exchange files

Does anyone know a symple way to exchange files inter Psion and Windows or Linux without using PsiWin.

Thankyou and sorry if it has been asked before.

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 17:56:53 +0100

From: Astrid Stappenbeck

Subject: Dead cheap accus and charger

For all in Germany,

Couldn't believe my eyes but Aldi (Nord) offers from tomorrow the 6th for a limited time NiMh Accus (e.g. 4 AA 1700 mAh) for 2.29 € and a recharger for 4.99 €

Top Craft NiMh Akkus

2 Stück D 1,2 Volt 3.000 mAh

2 Stück C 1,2 Volt 3.000 mAh

4 Stück AA 1,2 Volt 1.700 mAh

4 Stück AAA 1,2 Volt 650 mAh

1 Stück 9-V Block 9 Volt 150 mAh

je Packung 2.29 €

Top Craft Akku-Ladegerät

für NiCd oder NiMh Akkus der Größen: AAA, AA, C, D, 9-V-Blockakkus, mit Entlade- und Testfunktion (außer 9-V-Block), Ladekontrolleuchte, Schnelladefunktion, Überlastschutz.

36 Monate Herstellergarantie

Stück 4,99 €

I'll be shopping tomorrow - what about you?

Astrid

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 23:00:28 +0100

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: Data as RDBMS

Dear Rick,

<< Because I can't see any way that Data in Epoc R5 could be considered a RDBMS! It has no relational features that I can see >>

EPOC's database engine has been relational right from the start and can be accessed using SQL queries. Data, the application, uses only part of the database engine as it was written to be equivalent to Data on the Series 3 and Siena models.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 23:00:38 +0100

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: The future of Symbian OS

Arent,

<< I had based my message on the developments now going on with Intel , MicroSoft and the ILECS cosying up to each other and going to strike direct deals with the actual device manufacturers , bypassing the handset vendors in the process >>

This can be countered quite easily by the following.

[Start of story] The current success of Symbian based smartphones isn't only due to their quality but also due to Symbian not pushing the networks into alliances aimed at linking mobile services to Symbian OS capabilities. This gives the networks the freedom to develop the mobile services their customers like to see (in cooperation with the companies of their choice) and to distinguish themselves from their competitors. As mobile networks don't have to worry about being restricted by what Symbian prescribes they are happy to sell Symbian based smartphones. There's hardly a mobile network in Europe that doesn't have Symbian based smartphones in its sales outlets. Which has had the additional effect of building consumer confidence as Symbian based smartphones aren't seen as the possible victims of a VHS/Betamax/V2000 style market war. This has already undermined Microsoft's strategy of bypassing the consumer and addressing the mobile networks. Microsoft hasn't been successful and there may be a few who'll join the likes of Orange and O2. However, it will quickly become clear that these mobile networks can't do without having Symbian based smartphones in their sales and mobile service portfolio. Such phones as the Orange SPV and O2 XDA will get their successors but they'll end up playing a relatively minor role in the smartphone market. Microsoft's temporary saviour will be CDMA. More specifically, the US mobile networks Sprint PCS and Verizon which use CDMA network technology. But the writing is already on the 'CDMA wall'. The alliance between Texas Instruments, Nokia, ARM and ST Microelectronics is currently breaking the Qualcomm stranglehold on CDMA chipsets. This means that the first Symbian based smartphones for CDMA will be launched in the second half of 2004. And the fact that GSM/GPRS is making great strides in the US, and is expected to surpass CDMA in 2005, means that Sprint PCS and Verizon won't be able to hold on to a Microsoft-only policy. They won't be able to deny their subscribers the CDMA versions of Symbian based smartphones their GSM/GPRS network competitors are offering their customers. Given that the smartphone is taking over the role of the PDA the above will also have an eroding effect on Microsoft's activities in the PDA sector. Which will, finally, leave Microsoft and Windows CE the sector of industrial handheld computers. [End of story]

The above is a 'Kits van Heijningen' with the twist of being a story about Symbian becoming the dominant force in smartphones. However, I'm not so foolish to say that the above is exactly what's going to happen. Nor am I going to pester people on Windows CE related on-line discussion forums by repeatedly posting the above story in various guises. I trust many of them are pleased with their Windows CE based Hewlett Packards, Dells, Toshibas and what have you. They wouldn't be a member of a Windows CE discussion and mutual support forum when they'd loath it. I'm not going to spoil their pleasure by telling them what they own and like is doomed.

That Microsoft is addressing the mobile networks is the result of it (a) being late to recognise the potentials of merging PDA with mobile phone and (b) of it failing to attract one of the top-tier mobile phone manufacturers until recently. It had to find a different approach and knocking on the doors of the mobile networks is the one it has chosen. It remains to be seen whether this approach will give Microsoft, as well as the networks that join Microsoft, what they expect from it.

<< Nokia is moving Symbian down the scale , but only selected high-end models will have an exposed native API/UI , all the rest will be Java/proprietary only >>

Let's get one item out of the way first. The term 'proprietary' means that something has a proprietor, an expensive word for owner. Given that Windows CE is owned by Microsoft, Symbian OS by the Symbian partnership, PalmOS by PalmSource and Series 60 plus Series 90 by Nokia we can forget the term 'proprietary'. It has no meaning within the context of this discussion. Develop for Windows CE in the form of the Orange SPV and you'll be dealing with a proprietary UI and API. The same applies to developing for the Nokia 3650 or any other Series 60 smartphone.

As for an "exposed API", even Nokia's low cost entry level phones have such an exposed API as it's used by the applications these phones are equipped with. The only people its exposed to are Nokia's own developers as a phone like the Nokia 3100 doesn't allow it's owner to install additional applications. This option is offered by other phones in Nokia's line-up. Which is fine, because not every Nokia user has the need to expand his/her mobile phone's capabilities. When Nokia's Series 60 platform filters down it can result in a 3100-like model it will still have the Series 60 API despite not being expandable (with third-party applications).

The same applies to Windows CE and PalmOS as both allow you to build an entry level phone that's equipped with a number of standard applications but doesn't allow you to add applications. Their APIs will be inside the phone and exposed to the applications they're equipped with. What you write has therefore nothing to do with Symbian OS, Windows CE or PalmOS. It has everything to do with building mobile phones for the various market segments.

<< That symbian-based phones are such huge sellers says nothing about future developments as most of these sales are heavily subsidized by the carriers >>

Well ... the SPV is subsidised by Orange and the XDA by O2, meaning that Microsoft based smartphones are also subsidised. And it's not to be expected that these subsidies will go away. A network operator that introduces Microsoft based mobile services that can only be accessed using Microsoft based smartphones will think twice about asking full price for these phones. When the consumer can get a similar set of mobile services in combination with (say) a subsidised Nokia 6600 the network is bound to attract relatively few customers. Unless these Microsoft based mobile services are far in advance of anything that's being offered. Which isn't to be expected either because Microsoft is building up what a range of other companies already have in place and are developing further. It's therefore almost a given that a network which goes all-Microsoft will subsidise its smartphones in order to attract the consumer.

<< When the ILEC's start to offer *.CE-based phones and associated services in earnest and start to drop support for the symbian models , then sales of the latter will drop precipitously >>

Forget about using the term ILECs within the context of this discussion. ILECs has to do with a US telecommunications act and with local exchanges (the LE in ILECs) that bring landline services into the home or office. You're talking smartphones and we're therefore dealing with mobile networks. Not every landline operator has a mobile network and vice versa.

Going back to the real points of the discussion, you're using two conditions in the sentence I've quoted above. The first is the "When" of mobile networks starting to offer Microsoft based phones and Microsoft based services. You make it sound as if the whole A to Z of mobile networks will do so. That (say) Orange, mmO2 and T-Mobile will go for Microsoft based phones and services doesn't imply that Vodafone, Telestet, Belgacom, Telstra, SingTel and Telefonica, to name but a few, will do the same. Such a move has its advantages as well as its disadvantages each network has to evaluate for itself. I'm sure there will be networks that prefer not to be tied to a single supplier for both phones and services. The second condition is the "and" of (say) mmO2 removing Symbian based phones from its sales catalogue. That's not a given as there are some very good reasons to supply Symbian based phones as well as Microsoft based phones. At this point I allow myself to be as vague about these good reasons as you are vague about the "associated services". Besides, you can be sure that OPTA, the Dutch telecommunications regulator, and well as NMa, the Dutch competition watchdog, will step in when all five mobile networks in the Netherlands go for Microsoft based phones and services, thereby locking out competing products.

Still, your conclusion is that Symbian based phones will be a temporary blip on the smartphone radar screen, so to speak. That is, when the above two conditions are met. However, there's a third condition you don't mention. The condition that these Microsoft based phones and services find favour with the mobile phone buying public. Nothing's guaranteed in the business world. Microsoft's strategy of catching the consumer via the mobile networks hasn't been well an truly tested in the marketplace and can fail the test. There's a chance that Microsoft's venture into mobile phones will be taught to MBA students in 2010 as an example of how not to do it.

<< I expect however , that Symbian phones are good for at least another 12-18 months of sale ... >>

Symbian's partners and licensees aren't blind to what's happening in the market place and will counter what Microsoft has to offer in the form of smartphones. Given the product life cycle of mobile phones we're no longer talking about such phones as the Nokia 6600, Orange SPV E100 or SonyEricsson P800 in 18 months time. They will have been succeeded already by new models. There's even a good chance that the successors to some of these successors are starting to role off the production lines by that time.

As the Symbian partners and licensees expect 10 million Symbian based smartphones will be shipped this year, and that shipments will grow, there's a good chance that more than 35 million will have been shipped in 18 months time. And that the mobile networks have rolled out and/or expanded mobile services that can be accessed using these smartphones. In other words, that the point at which Microsoft could dislodge Symbian has been well and truly passed. And that it's Microsoft that's playing second fiddle.

<< Combining Java and CE.NET in one handset is attractive because they can offer the same models to the ILEC's and the business markets as well as the CLEC's and the consumer/entertainment markets Combined , these two environments will render native UI's/API's superfluous >>

I'm sorry, but you really need to do some background reading because the above contains a number of elementary mistakes. The 'C' in CLECs doesn't stand for Consumer. Simple fact is that the (US based) ILECs and CLECs supply landline telephony services to business, industry as well as the consumer. Whether a company is an ILEC or a CLEC depends on whether is was active in the US market before or after 1996.

Second mistake is to associate .NET with corporate applications. That may very well be its main market but it doesn't exclude consumer orientated applications. Besides, .NET is *a* solution rather than *the* solution as it has its limitations. It's, for example, not the technology of choice when you want to access corporate information stored in Oracle databases.

The third mistake concerns native UIs and APIs becoming superfluous. What you forget is that a Java application is running on a Java Virtual Machine (JVM). Now, the JVM may offer a neutral environment towards the application but it still needs to interact with the platform its running on by means of the platform's APIs. Microsoft's .NET uses a similar encapsulated environment, as far as I understand, that has to meet the same requirements. Besides, an application which uses an encapsulated environment always has a performance disadvantage compared to applications that use the platform's own APIs and UIs. As smartphones will have to balance sheer processor grunt against battery capacity it's not a given that each an every application lends itself to be developed using Java or .NET.

<< many new Symbian phones only use the kernel and the wireless stack , running a JVM and or *.CE/PalmOS resp. the proprietary software on top of that >>

One of these new Symbian phones is the Nokia 6600 which was launched on June 16th. I hereby invite you to describe the software innards of the 6600 and to pinpoint which elements are Symbian's, which are Windows CE and which are PalmOS. You're free to pick another new Symbian phone in case you're not familiar with the 6600 (yet).

Reason for the invitation is that what you describe is an unbelievable mongrel of a mobile phone. Unbelievable in the sense of 'Do I really see what I'm seeing' when we'd encounter one. But also unbelievable in the sense 'Who in his right mind would develop such a beast?'. I've followed smartphone developments quite closely and am quite sure that such a mongrel doesn't exist. Still, I'm giving you the opportunity to surprise me, and other EPOC Digest members, by describing the mongrel. Needless to say that, what you write above becomes unbelievable when you don't rise to the challenge.

<< ... and recent Java implementations have performace comparable to native applications while at the same time being completely compatible with both the Sun and Microsoft implementations ... >>

That's not the case because:

a) Java applications always carry a performance penalty compared to applications which use t;he platform's own APIs and UI.

and,

b) It's well known that Microsoft's implementation of Java isn't 100% compatible with Sun's own implementation. What Microsoft has done with its implementation has even lead to a court case between Microsoft and Sun Microsystems.

<< EPOC is developed from the ground up as a DOS-like OS , but complete with a menu-driven or graphical user interface for small resource-constrained devices ... >>

This clearly shows that you don't know what you're talking about because what you describe isn't EPOC. Which is underlined the sentence that follows : "Following the mailing lists , the *.CE versions based on Linux and NetBSD have similar stability and usability issues as the MicroSoft offering" as it shows that you even don't know what Windows CE is. It explains why you're coming up with the above Symbian/WindowsCE/PalmOS mongrel. You apparently think that software is so malleable that you can mix and match software elements from the various operating systems. Well .. that's not the way it works. Go and read the technical literature and you'll quickly know why.

<< Rolfs contribution was in many respects solid , but again colored by his dislike for "Crap Edition " >>

Read my message again - you won't find one single sentence in which in use the term "Crap Edition" or call Windows CE crap. I haven't even commented on the capabilities and/or deficiencies of Windows CE. As for dislike, I've used Windows CE PDAs (both with and without keyboard) but they haven't persuaded me to change PDA. They simply didn't fulfil my requirements - PalmOS PDAs come closer in this respect. I, personally, think that what somebody wants to do with a PDA (or smartphone) is more important than the operating system of the PDA/Smartphone. I've therefore no problem with recommending a Windows CE PDA when it meets somebody's requirements better than an EPOC one. Finally, I think it's common courtesy to use proper company and product names. Even when I'd be of the opinion that Windows CE is a disaster of an operating system I'd still call it Windows CE.

<< The successor to the 9210/9290 is the 6800 ( no native UI/API , no build-in Bluetooth ) >>

That's not the case. First, because Nokia's literature on the 6800 doesn't mention anywhere that it succeeds the 9210 and 9290. Secondly, because Nokia has already mentioned that there will be a successor to the 92xx models. Please find below and excerpt from issue no. 8 (2003) of the German magazine Connect which contains a short interview with Anssi Vanjoki, Executive Vice President of Nokia's mobile phone division.

CONNECT : Wie steht es um Ihr Produktportfolio für Profis, wird es einen neuen Communicator geben?

VANJOKI : Absolut. Mit jeder der bisherigen vier Generationen is der Communicator gewachsen. Menschen wie ich, jeder der ihn einmal benutzt hat, kan nicht mehr ohne ihn leben. Icht teste diese Produkte hier die ganze zeit (zeight einige Nokia-Handys), aber dieser hier ist mein ständiger begleiter (greift lachend zu seinem 9210i).

Below my own translation for non-German speakers.

CONNECT : How about your products for professionals, will there be a new Communicator?

VANJOKI : Absolutely. The Communicator has grown in each of its four generations. People like me, everybody who has used it, can no longer live without it. I test these models all the time (shows a few Nokia phones), but this one is my regular companion (smiles, while showing his 9210i).

<< Probably Nokia's last Symbian phone with native UI/API will be the 6600 , to be released Q3 in Scandinavia and Q4 elsewhere >>

Even when we assume that Windows CE becomes the dominant smartphone platform it doesn't imply that a company like Nokia won't launch a Symbian OS based successor to the 6600. The introduction of Windows CE hasn't stopped Palm from launching new PalmOS versions and PDAs. Microsoft releasing new desktop Windows versions hasn't stopped Apple from introducing new MacOS versions as well as computers that use it. The smartphone market will be big enough for Symbian OS to live alongside PalmOS, Windows CE and Linux. Question is, which of the four will become the dominant player. Signs are that it will be Symbian OS because Microsoft was too late in recognising the importance of the smartphone market.

Concerning the Psion Teklogix netBook you wrote:

<< The problem is , there is no support for the touch screen and alpha section of the keyboard and apps will run in a small ( 176 by 208 sized ) window on the Netbook's screen Apps need to be rewritten completely to take full advantage of the netbook's features , with the attendant problems with respect to stability and performance ( situation comparable to Alphasmart Dana and Palm apps ) >>

That's not the case as Symbian OS is the software equivalent of a LEGO construction set. Each new Symbian OS release contains new and/or enhanced building blocks. Support for touch screens, QWERTY keyboards, phone-like keypads as well as for screens of various sizes is included. Nokia could, for example, have broken with the format of the 9000 and 9110 by giving the 9210 a touch screen but decided not to do so. Applications like Symbian Word don't need to be completely rewritten as they already scale themselves according the available screen dimensions. Elements like the toolbar buttons can be switched off and the menu bar activated by a key-command rather than a screen tap (event mapping).

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 23:01:14 +0100

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: WinCE

Dear Alan,

<< On this Digest we all enjoy our Psions with EPOC, but unfortunately it is a dying OS. Even versions higher than 5 are not real EPOC computers as we know it with ER5, lacking functionality in the built-in apps and third party apps >>

I'm afraid you're making the mistake of equating the operating system with the devices it's running on. Psion created a separate software division (Psion Software) in order to license the EPOC operating system as it could be used by devices other than its own handheld computers. Release 5 of EPOC is also used by the Ericsson R380 smartphone and the Psion Teklogix netPad industrial handheld terminal.

Besides, Symbian has dropped the EPOC name and replaced it by Symbian OS. Our EPOC Release 5 is thus Symbian OS 5 and has been developed into Symbian OS 6 and Symbian OS 7. That these later versions go into smartphones rather than handheld computers doesn't mean you can't use them for a handheld computer. The Nokia 9210, 9210i and 9290 use Symbian OS 6 and are equipped with the word processor and spreadsheet applications we're familiar with. Strip the mobile phone out of a 9210 and you effectively have the later version of an EPOC Release 5 handheld computer. Strip the mobile phone out of the Symbian OS 7 based SonyEricsson P800 and you have a PDA.

Regarding third-party applications, they exist because the standard applications are 'incomplete'. The range of third-party applications for the ER5 Psions indicates that they lacked quite a lot of functionality. I therefore don't see any reason to criticise the Symbian OS 6 and 7 based smartphones in this respect. As the ER5 third-party software library wasn't created overnight it's not to be expected that it will be created overnight for the Symbian smartphones. And the application set a typical smartphone buyer is interested in may not be the same set a typical Psion buyer is interested in. Meaning that an application typical smartphone buyers rate highly will appear on the market earlier than an application you'd like to have.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 23:01:23 +0100

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: PEG-UX50...

Dear Mike,

<< As for the Palm OS being comparable to Symbian, I said, "it's been rumoured that OS5 was the PalmOS with the Symbian kernel" ... I don't know if Palm is using the Symbian kernel but it's been talked about so much you have to wonder >>

You don't have to wonder anymore as the answer to the question "Does PalmOS 5 use the Symbian OS kernel" is : No. Palm started to look towards the future around the period PalmOS 3.5 was launched. It's well known that Palm had discussions with Symbian[1] on the licensing of Symbian OS but nothing came out of it. The company finally decided to buy Be Inc, the makers of the BeOS operating system. Palm also decided to drop the Motorola Drangonball processor and to adopt an ARM based processor around that time. The former Be development team was given the job of developing a new 32-bit PalmOS, together with people from Palm's own software development group. The result of their labours is PalmOS 5.

The company that was, at one time, working on a merger of PalmOS and the Symbian OS core wasn't Palm but Nokia. Nokia licensed PalmOS on order to develop a hybrid Symbian/Palm smartphone for the US market. The project died a quiet death in 2001 and it took Palm nine months to, finally, confirm that Nokia's PalmOS license wouldn't result in a product.

[1] Note that their rivalry in the marketplace doesn't prevent Microsoft, Symbian and PalmSource talking with each other.

Kind Regards,

Rolf Brunsting - Darp - Netherlands

*++++++++++&

Date: 5 Aug 2003 23:01:31 +0100

From: Rolf Brunsting

Subject: Re: WinCE

Dear Martin,

<< EPOC has never had as much functionality as it has now. NO functionality whatsoever has been removed if you compare ER5 and ER7s (the latest version) >>

There are too many acronyms already in the computer world to create new acronyms where none are needed. Symbian has decided to drop the EPOC name in favour of Symbian OS. EPOC Release 5 has thus been succeeded by Symbian OS 6 and Symbian OS 7. (People inside Symbian sometimes apply the name change retrospectively and talk about Symbian OS 5 rather than EPOC Release 5). Let's therefore use the Symbian OS 7 name rather than the non-existent EPOC Release 7 or ER7. After all, it's Symbian OS 7 that's mentioned in device specifications, that's mentioned in magazine reviews of these devices, etc.

<< In fact, some people have recently said (for example the CEO of Opera) that EPOC might in the near future *outsell* Windows (all flavours included) in terms of unit sales. If this happens it is the first time since the late 80s that Windows has been *dethroned* as the best selling OS >>

This doesn't say that much. There are embedded operating systems hidden in electronic goods that outsell desktop and laptop PCs. Look at the number of units shipped and you may find that Windows has never been the no.1 best selling operating system. The actual no. 1 may be an operating system you've never heard of, from a company you've never heard of either, because the devices that use it don't advertise their operating system.

<< The netBook petition is - I think - the first time the EPOC community has sort of put a stake in the ground and unified to express a market demand >>

It's not the first - there have been earlier petitions. Besides, I wouldn't talk about *the* EPOC Community if I were you. It's questionable whether the people who signed the petition form a representative cross section of the people who use an EPOC based handheld computer. Some people know about the petition but haven't signed it, for one reason or other, and you're thus not talking on their behalf.